The link between shotokan karate and Taekwondo. Why both styles use the same movements in their forms. And the strange reason why the movements of Taekwondo’s poomse are in a different order than the same movements from the kata of shotokan karate.
I’m 43 years old. In my youth, I spent many years practicing Taekwondo and Shotokan karate at the same. The more I learned about each martial art, the more I could see how connected they were. It wasn’t until years later that I studied the history of the Japanese occupation of Korea, which was ultimately the historical precedent for integrating Japanese kata into the Korean national martial of Taekwondo when it was finally codified as a unique fighting style and combat sport in 1955.
To anyone who has practiced the forms of both arts, the connection should be obvious. But the main reason for the differences might surprise you.
Since transitioning to professional combat sports nearly 20 years ago, I haven’t kept up with the forms of either style. So, please leave as many pedantic comments as possible about how a Taekwondo black belt should be ashamed for not remembering the exact order of the movements of even the first poomse. This would be much appreciated. Thanks!
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37 Comments
Tae Geuk and Pal Gae forms. There is WTF and the harder ITF. 😂😂😂 I would’ve been better off shadow boxing and jump roping with all that time memorizing forms.
ITF the original Taekwon-do created by Gen Choi Hong Hi and the original forms came from Shotokan. The forms you showed are totally made up for the WTF and are there second lot if forms as they created new ones. They are totally fabricated as is most of the WTF/WT. Historic fact. Gen. Choi Hong Hi was born in North Korea and South Korea couldn't have that now could they so Olympic WTF/WT was invented for national interest.
Its fake, its rubbish and it is a lie to the world.
It's a step and a punch
Inaccurate because there are many schools of TAY kwoen do, but the two main ones of ITF and WTF have different forms (words for forms are tul, poomsae and hyung). Some are from Okinawan arts like Shotokan but others are original. Having the same techniques does not make them derived from Okinawan arts such as Shotokan. Tang Soo Do is more derived from Okinawan than tkd.
I love martial arts but I really, really hate practicing kata. I agree with Lyoto Machida when he says you are much better off using that time for sparring. One of the things I love about Muay Thai is you don't practice kata, even though I have seen that there are some Muay Thai katas.
I did not know you are a black belt in TKD, btw, an interesting hand position for a high block. TKD is taken its inspiration from Shotokan, Taichi and Taekyon. I agree with you about researching into the history of , not only, shotokan, but deeper than shotokan. Good video!
even lung fu ia same
Japanese Karate also had a nationalistic motive as it was originally Okinawan, the Okinawan Te Martial Artists were brought to mainland Japan to develop Karate for public education.
It is very important to note that this taekwondo (WT) have very little not say anything to do at all with the original Taekwon-Do (ITF). General Choi created one and only Taekwon-Do with the idea of telling the world the history of Korea while teaching them self defence. The Olympic taekwondo was created by someone that wanted money and fame.
Ramsey since you have done MMA and are an expert grappler and now know what a lot of the forms are supposed to be teaching, would you say there is value in the "shadow grappling" portion of martial arts? Curious because there's a growing number of the traditional martial artists with positive MMA fight records (who still teach TMAs since they are more popular than MMA across broad portions of society) so I imagine they could teach the applications! In a generation could we be going into a TMA renaissance?
For instance if for some reason you could only teach taekwondo, would you teach students that the downward block was to strip a grip on your wrist?
I was a serious TKD competitor, almost qualified for the Pan American Games when I was 12. All you have to do is look at the techniques side by side, and you can see for yourself. In fact, I always chuckle when I see videos of "Katate vs. Taekwondo" kicks or techniques. I think to myself, "Yep…..pretty much the same thing either way."
Yes taekwondo 🥋 was developed from karate, anyone with any knowledge of the art knows that, although they built from shotokan in my personal opinion I believe the Koreans improved the style in many ways, I always found taekwondo appealing as a kid in the 80s because of the beautiful kicking techniques
Trained in wado ryu when I was younger , decided to start Taeqwondo when i hit 33, it is the same movements isn’t it? My instructor doesn’t like it when I mention Karate ha. He’s a friend though so I just wind him up. One thing i do wish they’d do though , in all traditional martial arts, is use modern science physics more, think the forms are good for a bass in teaching people to move, it’s kind of like footwork in boxing isn’t it …..except I’ve never seen anyone pull off the middle or high block.
You are all wrong.
General Choi was the first Korean to unify Korean Martial Arts, but it took the Dictatorship of South Korea to divide it.
Left Taekwondo because it had to much emphasis on learning forms and got into kickboxing instead. Found kickboxing way more productive and actually learn more effeciently as it dosent waste time on ballet drill nonsense.
Sort of. The South Korean Flag is based off of the I Ching. Or the book of changes. Heaven, water, fire and earth are reflected on the flag. But there's actually 8 Trigrams.
The world taekwondo poomsae all revolve around the 8 Trigrams of the I Ching.
Yes 4 of them were placed on the Korean Flag, but the Trigrams from the I Ching have a 5000 year history, each corresponding with a different element of nature, mentality, life philosophy, and spiritual meaning.
Example, Poomsae Yuk Jang is represented by the Water Trigram, Gam. Which high-level represents water's endless flow and perseverance carving a path, through even mountains.
Taekwondo forms look superficially like karate but are a unique expression of self defences techniques. The proper interpretation of the different moves may not be revealed to the general public. The poomsae were codified in times of warfare and include techniques utilized in the Vietnam war and going back through the korean war or even the japanese occupation of korea. Despite the superficial resemblance to shotokan karate forms, the techniques may be different from okinawan karate due to the different philosophy that underpins each art.
Do you know of that book A Killing Art by Alex Gillis? If I remember correctly, he is a taekwondo practitioner. He also says that the founder of taekwondo derived his art from Shotokan.
things is : shotokan took those form from chinese kung fu –
https://youtu.be/UCvimTuwkZY
I believe the greatest "feels wrong" with Poomsea is the mixing of ranges. Forms in such traditional arts were supposed to teach you basic grappling or how to strike while grappling and you can actually feel it doing Pinan as an example. I cannot say the same for like the first 5 or 6 Taegeuk. They feel "cranky" it simply doesn't make sense to follow up a leg grab takedown with a fronk kick to the head or an elbow after a high sidekick. For me this urge for washing out japanese elements from the Korean martial arts forms seem to have seriously damaged their educational value.
I don't know a single (LEGITIMATE) Taekwondoin that doesn't acknowledge the roots of TKD being Karate or in the case of the Moo Duk Kwan, Kung Foo!
Thats so cool! I didn't know that
The original "tae kwon do" dojangs and masters where all Japanese karate dojo and used the forms (heian and pinan) of the Okinawan/Japanese lineage. Tae Kwon Do–is not a style, it is a designation of affiliation. Politics altered the forms post-war, and further splits between Tang Soo Do and TKD, between Old 9 Kwans and New ITF Government lineage, and finally the expulsion of ITF and the creation of WTF/WT and finally Olympic Sport TKD means that these modern, government created schools–further consolidation under government duress occurred all the way through the millennium, taking out the old, Aikijujitsu/Hapkido schools as well in favor of "modern" "Korean" arts. Meaning that what is currently passed off as TKD is in no way "karate" and a poor version of sport that cannot be called a "martial art" either. Those of us whose schools/dojangs escaped Korea and came to America/Europe/SA/Canada etc, during the 40s, 50s, til the 70s, are still around, the TSD guys and the old Chun Do Kwan guys (like me) are still out here, using Korean versions of the old Pyong An, Kuk Mu hyungs (heian/pinan) and typical dan rank karate forms. If you'd like some background/history of what training back in the post-smashmouth karate era of the 80s-90s from the instructors who came out of the 50s and 60s, you can read this book for free:
Traditional Chun Do Kwan, A Return to the Korean Martial Arts–by Anonymous on Amazon/Kindle–where the author–a longtime Chun Do Kwan and Hapkido instructor/blackbelt–discusses the mythologies that were used to create the pro-nationalists version of TKD–and the false genesis stories made up to distance the early TKD pioneers, including the crazy stories around Gen. Choi Hong Hi and others–that resulted in many prominent Korean martial artists (and eventually Choi his self)–in being exiled and their schools being coopted by government-backed administrations.
Shotokan karate is originated in Okinawa. Okinawa was not part of Japan until mid 1800's. They had their own defending and fighting skills to protect themselves from various enemies.
People of Okinawa came from surrounding regions, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, etc. There were no clear distinction among nations in ancient times, therefore, mixed people created own culture there.
This could be the reason we can't tell this is completely from one side of one nation. Okinawa itself has a distinctive language and culture despite Japan mainland started ruled.
Korean Taekwondo is a modern invention. This could be influenced by a long history of various martial art forms and then made into a modern Korean form based on national philosophy as seen in Korean flag as well as Ki(energy)-philosophy. This is not just a simply cut and paste of other martial art form. Each movement of Taekwondo has its own purpose and meaning. And these all forms are still evolving under Kukkiwon's authority (WT version). We can see many martial arts existing in the world have similar movements in some sort… And this is not surprising… Since antient time people migrated to various places and passed their culture to the other places. Once we see the world history in more diverse way, we can see these phenomenon.
Perhaps the taeguk poomsaes are derived from shotokan. But actual traditional taekwondo use palgwe poomsaes. At least thats what ive been taught.
Especially the older kwans. Certain kwans that survived from 2000 ago still use palgwe to this day.
Was that Jourdan laughing like a Howler Monkey? I was trying not to lose it during your closing rant but then he started and I couldn’t keep it together anymore!
I practiced Shotokan Karate in my youth, and now I study ITF TaeKwanDo. General Choi Hong-hi, the "father" of TaeKwanDo studied Japanese karate in his youth, and yes, there are some Patterns in the black belt ranks that have their influences and chambers direct from Shotokan Karate. I don't fully understand the reasons why South Korea broke away and started their own version of Taekwando. All I know is that WTF & ITF are completely different versions of TaeKwanDo. WTF has a lot more Japanese influence than the original ITF version. I may do a thesis on the difference between the 2 types if TKD for my next Dan test.
Tang Soo Do is the same – Shotokan with kicks added. It is more than just Korean nationalism I think. Historically the Koreans did not view the Japanese favorably. A number of the forms were attributed to the We Ka Ryu style.
Shotokan adapted for people with longer arms and legs is one way I look at it.
Shotokan Karate is derived from Shaolin Kungfu. We both Karate and Taekwondo have influence from Shaolin Kungfu
And once youve researched the shotokan katas, then go further to the Okinawan,
Nationalism is important for making money and spreading for an Olympic sport. Standardization from 9 Kwans, Schools that taught Chinese, Japanese and Korean Arts. And of course, distinguishing techniques and combinations distinct from Japanese and Chinese influences. Japanese Occupation and Colonialism of Korea was not a good memory. And well "Tang Soo Do" means Tang Dynasty Hand Way so that's not Korean either. Cult, Culture, same difference… Taekwondo is Korean, Chinese, Japanese MMA, the Arts of the alliance forces in the Tang Dynasty, but the capital of the Tang Dynasty is in now mainland China🇨🇳, and that's not aligned politically with South Korea🇰🇷.
After WW2 Korea was left with Shotokan schools due to the Japanese occupation. These schools are the origin of TKD. Similarly Hapkido comes from Takeda ryu.
So close to the center of the mark. Taeguk Poomsae are representative of the main 8 (of 64) I Ching Trigrams (How many Taeguk forms are there? 8. They're all that shape as well. Not just the 4 on the flag). That's a uniquely Chinese creation, so it'd be weird to claim nationalism there, but I suppose since they're on the Korean flag I can give you partial credit? lol. I won't discount the similarities in Shotokan forms, having taken Shotokan myself. So you make a fair and honest point that's well-known by people who practice seriously. If you want to see more, check out the Chang Hon forms in Taekwondo that ITF uses. They're put together much better from a body mechanics standpoint in my opinion (As long as you come from a school that doesn't practice sine-wave. Super cringe), but they very clearly have a Shotokan influence as well, as Choi Hong Hi practiced the style under none other than Gichin Funakoshi.
The original sets in TKD were the Pyong An sets. They were retained by Tang Soo Do and they are only slightly different from their Shotokan equivalents. Then came the Chang Hon developed by Gen Choi. These were an attempt to Koreanise the Shotokan forms not only in style but in the sequences. They also included some forms derived from Shuri Te and Tomari Te. eg: Chon Ji Hyung (or Tul) is straight from those arts.
The Palgwe were a further attempt to brand differentiate and reflected some slight shift away from tyhe Japanese roots. Meanwhile over in Tang Soo Do land Hwang Kee was developing some more original sets (which I like but struggle to understand).
Then, as TKD persisted its various fragmentations, the Kuk Ki Won came up with the Tae Gyuk forms (as you spoke to and showed bits of). These were a weird attempt to combine sparring with the Olympic push (at the time) and I believe failed to achieve anything. You can have them! They are still Shotokan derived, but with most of the useful bits removed.
All in the name of nationalism, brand differentiation and achieving a place in the Olympics.
Bleuh!
I'm late to the party, but this just came up in my feed. The comments about nationalism and the karate origins are correct. However, the explanation is misinformed. TKD has went through various transformations through its history. The first iteration was Tang Soo Do and american schools even marketed themselves as Korean Karate and, to this day, if you look at the list of forms from TSD schools they are the exact same as karate. When TKD emerged from the TSD era they actually had much different forms than were demonstrated in the video. The forms taught most often in the early days were the Chon-Ji forms and they were different, but very obviously related to karate forms then when a schism of the TKD leadership happened, the forms that were showcased in the video were adopted by one branch, while the other continued with the Chon-Ji line.
It's not a fun topic and a little much for a MA-centric channel, but the reasons that TKD and Karate look the same is because Japan took over Korea and dessimated it's culture. Afterward, Korea wanted something that they could bond with culturally and they came up with TKD.
Hi Ramsey
thanks for the good content. Beside Karate, Boxing and Kickboxing I also trained ITF Taekwondo for years. As you already mentioned in other videos it is a religious cult… especially with the Tul forms including a sine wave is pretty bizzare
What do you think about this wave? See also video below
https://whitedragondojang.wordpress.com/tag/sine-wave-is-stupid/