>In the moments after Liverpool’s late show at Nottingham Forest on Sunday, a specific theme quickly gained traction – why doesn’t Rio Ngumoha play more?
>Ex-Red Jamie Carragher was posing the question while the players celebrated in front of their away fans. Former striker Daniel Sturridge left it a while but raised the prospect of more Ngumoha game time on social media later in the day, while fans consistently threw the issue into the mix.
>Ngumoha – aged 17 years and 178 days at the time of writing – threatened to leap into our weekly consciousness when – just 16 at the time – he emerged from the bench to net a winner for Liverpool at Newcastle in August. A weekly impact or opportunity is yet to materialise.
>Head coach Arne Slot has had his say more than once, stating Ngumoha has played more football than most for a player of his age.
>”I don’t think there is an 18-year-old or 19-year-old that has maybe played as many minutes as Rio but that last bit I’m not sure about,” Slot said.
>”That tells you how much of a talent he is and we think he is. He is making progress more and more and that’s why you see him playing more and more.
>”He gets stronger and stronger. Apart from his moment when he had his one-v-one, there were also one or two other moments where he stands his ground. That is what you need because you face 25, 26, 27, 28-year-old athletes mainly as your opponents because we are a bit of an exception in terms of our age group of players. Most teams have players of different ages and physicality.
>”For him to show this already at 17 years of age, it says something about his talent. But as we all know, talent is only the start of his career, you need so many other things.”
>So how much exposure has Ngumoha had in the Premier League? That depends on your preferred metric.
>On one hand, his nine appearances this season are seven more than any other player under the age of 18, with Arsenal’s Max Dowman, Crystal Palace’s Joel Drakes-Thomas and Brighton’s Harry Howell all on two appearances. A total of 18 players in Premier League history have earned more appearances than Ngumoha before turning 18.
>But appearances could mean 90 minutes of mayhem or a solitary minute awaiting a meaningful touch.
>So drilled down, Ngumoha has just 89 minutes of football to his name in the top tier. That’s again leading the way this season for those aged under 18, nine minutes clear of Howell.
>But, ranked historically, his 89 minutes ranks 55th in Premier League history for players under the age of 18.
>Gareth Barry had bagged 2,105 minutes before turning 18, Wayne Rooney 2,037 and Luke Shaw 1,950.
>Naturally, a theory exists whereby those who start young – Michael Owen, Fernando Torres and Raheem Sterling to name a few – perhaps show the impact of injuries and load by their mid-to-late 20s.
>Any club would be wise to guard against this in the hope of ensuring longevity and asset value.
>So is Slot getting it right in terms of balance? Are you surprised with how Ngumoha ranks historically? Is he good enough already to play more, or is an impact role fitting for now?
FCAsheville on
Slot keeps saying this and it’s nuts. He regularly plays U21s, so stop giving him those minutes and let him play some real PL minutes.
narilarilum on
Nobody can’t tell us that it would harm Rio in any way if he was brought in earlier in games. If anything these 20-30 minute cameos would provide a great platform for him to get used to the PL quicker. Said El Mala and Cologne are a great example. He’s been a substitute in every game and was given a start here and there.
Xafniko on
The difference is the modern game. The physical load, fixture congestion, sports science data — clubs are way more cautious now. Starting him every week at 17 might feel exciting, but we’ve also seen what early burnout can look like.
Commercial-Bottle554 on
Tbf to slot, and I don’t defend much he does these days, the list of young players who have had their careers completely derailed by injuries in recent years after upping their minutes with us is pretty disastrous.
Bajcetic, danns, Gordon, lucky etc
Being careful with him is probably the best plan for the long term. It’s just a shame the only alternative is Gakpo.
FormerManyThings on
To try to say just u21 minutes and PL minutes are the same thing for a 17-year-old is either foolish or disingenuous.
England, and Liverpool, is littered with 17- and 18-year-old players who were going to be the next big thing. Most fade into obscurity by the time they are 20. A handful have a few good seasons then, as the article suggests, break down by the time they are 24 (there is a loudly ticking clock on Saka).
But, because one or two have made it (the Rooney tier), we assume it’s all going to be ok and this next young kid will be the one who won’t wash out, won’t be ground down by injuries to a growing body, won’t crack under PL pressure before finding a nice home in League One.
I don’t know if Slot is handling Rio’s growth correctly, but England is great at handling youth players incorrectly, so I’m willing to give the new generation of management and sports science a try.
petey23- on
Eh, people are so different at that age that comparisons don’t really help.
I’m glad he isn’t playing 60 odd minutes week in week out though. Limiting game time at this age should prolong his career.
Red_TeaCup on
I’d say they need to manage his minutes correctly or his legs will be gone by the time he reaches his early to mid 20’s.
The amount of games we see kids like Pedri or Yamal play is completely a new phenomenon. Even Messi didn’t play that many games at their age.
margielamazza on
people don’t realise it’s not just playing super intensive games in the pl and ucl. to be able to do that you must be training consistently. and do 1st team level training which is brutal for academy players generally. that’s why slot saw what happened under klopp, players playing intensive 1st team sessions constantly, thën stopping that. why rio has a unique training regime where often he might only do gym work or less sessions than the rest of the team. to protect him from the various ailments öf baj, gordon, lucky & danns. which is why i’ll never understand any of the hate or sacking shouts about slot when he’s done all he can with the several issues compounded this season.
mrtee-1972 on
A little too little, but he’s still very young.
Additional-Fail-7302 on
Is irrelevant. All down to genetics. Owen was fucked by 23, Milner’s still going at nearly 40.
NLF7 on
I think this whole thing has been annoying me.
Yes the club need to manage him, but feels like it’s gone too far the other way. He needs more opportunities than he’s been given. He’s fucking brilliant.
Cool_Foot_Luke on
It’s not really a fair argument.
They say he’s 55th in minutes as if he is eighteen tomorrow.
At current pace he could end up in the top 30 under 18’s for minutes before his birthday.
And there is also a massive difference between playing a load of minutes for Everton (Rooney), Southampton (Shaw) Leeds, (Milner), or Villa (Barry).
Compared to a reigning champions in a desperate CL fight for Rio.
And simply look at the list of top minutes for under 18’s and it’s a who’s, who of players who peaked too early and suffered badly with injuries after their mid twenties.
Raheem Sterling, Wayne Rooney, Luke Shaw, Joe Cole, Jack Rodwell, Michael Richards, Michael Owen, Theo Walcott.
All a shadow of themselves when older and missing half of their games with injuries.
There are very few Milners and Barry’s bucking that trend.
mezykin on
I seem to remember Raheem Sterling play far far more at 17 under Rodgers
tmfitz7 on
Football wearing down your body at 27 is probably a result of playing 10 straight years of pro football by 27.
brush85 on
They are trying to make sure that he has a long career and that we don’t end up in a Bajcetic situation.
The bigger issue is that there aren’t senior players good enough to be playing there. 99.9% of the time your answer is a 17 year old, you’ve gone down the wrong path
thesuitelife2010 on
I do NOT want to see Rio play more. I mean of course I do… but only when he’s physically ready. He’s at an age where could absolutely ruin his long term career right now
Safe-Guide4856 on
I mean what arne can do is play gakpo n salah in the first half and then if they play even average then if possible in the second half itself OR by the 60th min they can change and bring on chiesa and rio ….I mean changing wingers will almost always change the match so yeah….and then slowly we can make rio stop playing with the youth I mean youth matches and completely start getting more minutes until he becomes the star he is supposed to be
bocojaLFC on
Slot’s explanations in press conferences feel just disconnected from reality and coming across as attempts to twist the narrative in his favor.
At this point, I find it hard to take his words seriously anymore.
Specialist_Sport4460 on
The thing is all we really need to see is him getting 30mins instead of 10/15. You know what you’re getting from Gakpo after about 20 minutes. It’s not like he’s one of those that will suddenly turn up and change a game if he’s been playing badly so no reason not to start subbing him off sooner.
20 Comments
>In the moments after Liverpool’s late show at Nottingham Forest on Sunday, a specific theme quickly gained traction – why doesn’t Rio Ngumoha play more?
>Ex-Red Jamie Carragher was posing the question while the players celebrated in front of their away fans. Former striker Daniel Sturridge left it a while but raised the prospect of more Ngumoha game time on social media later in the day, while fans consistently threw the issue into the mix.
>Ngumoha – aged 17 years and 178 days at the time of writing – threatened to leap into our weekly consciousness when – just 16 at the time – he emerged from the bench to net a winner for Liverpool at Newcastle in August. A weekly impact or opportunity is yet to materialise.
>Head coach Arne Slot has had his say more than once, stating Ngumoha has played more football than most for a player of his age.
>”I don’t think there is an 18-year-old or 19-year-old that has maybe played as many minutes as Rio but that last bit I’m not sure about,” Slot said.
>”That tells you how much of a talent he is and we think he is. He is making progress more and more and that’s why you see him playing more and more.
>”He gets stronger and stronger. Apart from his moment when he had his one-v-one, there were also one or two other moments where he stands his ground. That is what you need because you face 25, 26, 27, 28-year-old athletes mainly as your opponents because we are a bit of an exception in terms of our age group of players. Most teams have players of different ages and physicality.
>”For him to show this already at 17 years of age, it says something about his talent. But as we all know, talent is only the start of his career, you need so many other things.”
>So how much exposure has Ngumoha had in the Premier League? That depends on your preferred metric.
>On one hand, his nine appearances this season are seven more than any other player under the age of 18, with Arsenal’s Max Dowman, Crystal Palace’s Joel Drakes-Thomas and Brighton’s Harry Howell all on two appearances. A total of 18 players in Premier League history have earned more appearances than Ngumoha before turning 18.
>But appearances could mean 90 minutes of mayhem or a solitary minute awaiting a meaningful touch.
>So drilled down, Ngumoha has just 89 minutes of football to his name in the top tier. That’s again leading the way this season for those aged under 18, nine minutes clear of Howell.
>But, ranked historically, his 89 minutes ranks 55th in Premier League history for players under the age of 18.
>Gareth Barry had bagged 2,105 minutes before turning 18, Wayne Rooney 2,037 and Luke Shaw 1,950.
>Naturally, a theory exists whereby those who start young – Michael Owen, Fernando Torres and Raheem Sterling to name a few – perhaps show the impact of injuries and load by their mid-to-late 20s.
>Any club would be wise to guard against this in the hope of ensuring longevity and asset value.
>So is Slot getting it right in terms of balance? Are you surprised with how Ngumoha ranks historically? Is he good enough already to play more, or is an impact role fitting for now?
Slot keeps saying this and it’s nuts. He regularly plays U21s, so stop giving him those minutes and let him play some real PL minutes.
Nobody can’t tell us that it would harm Rio in any way if he was brought in earlier in games. If anything these 20-30 minute cameos would provide a great platform for him to get used to the PL quicker. Said El Mala and Cologne are a great example. He’s been a substitute in every game and was given a start here and there.
The difference is the modern game. The physical load, fixture congestion, sports science data — clubs are way more cautious now. Starting him every week at 17 might feel exciting, but we’ve also seen what early burnout can look like.
Tbf to slot, and I don’t defend much he does these days, the list of young players who have had their careers completely derailed by injuries in recent years after upping their minutes with us is pretty disastrous.
Bajcetic, danns, Gordon, lucky etc
Being careful with him is probably the best plan for the long term. It’s just a shame the only alternative is Gakpo.
To try to say just u21 minutes and PL minutes are the same thing for a 17-year-old is either foolish or disingenuous.
England, and Liverpool, is littered with 17- and 18-year-old players who were going to be the next big thing. Most fade into obscurity by the time they are 20. A handful have a few good seasons then, as the article suggests, break down by the time they are 24 (there is a loudly ticking clock on Saka).
But, because one or two have made it (the Rooney tier), we assume it’s all going to be ok and this next young kid will be the one who won’t wash out, won’t be ground down by injuries to a growing body, won’t crack under PL pressure before finding a nice home in League One.
I don’t know if Slot is handling Rio’s growth correctly, but England is great at handling youth players incorrectly, so I’m willing to give the new generation of management and sports science a try.
Eh, people are so different at that age that comparisons don’t really help.
I’m glad he isn’t playing 60 odd minutes week in week out though. Limiting game time at this age should prolong his career.
I’d say they need to manage his minutes correctly or his legs will be gone by the time he reaches his early to mid 20’s.
The amount of games we see kids like Pedri or Yamal play is completely a new phenomenon. Even Messi didn’t play that many games at their age.
people don’t realise it’s not just playing super intensive games in the pl and ucl. to be able to do that you must be training consistently. and do 1st team level training which is brutal for academy players generally. that’s why slot saw what happened under klopp, players playing intensive 1st team sessions constantly, thën stopping that. why rio has a unique training regime where often he might only do gym work or less sessions than the rest of the team. to protect him from the various ailments öf baj, gordon, lucky & danns. which is why i’ll never understand any of the hate or sacking shouts about slot when he’s done all he can with the several issues compounded this season.
A little too little, but he’s still very young.
Is irrelevant. All down to genetics. Owen was fucked by 23, Milner’s still going at nearly 40.
I think this whole thing has been annoying me.
Yes the club need to manage him, but feels like it’s gone too far the other way. He needs more opportunities than he’s been given. He’s fucking brilliant.
It’s not really a fair argument.
They say he’s 55th in minutes as if he is eighteen tomorrow.
At current pace he could end up in the top 30 under 18’s for minutes before his birthday.
And there is also a massive difference between playing a load of minutes for Everton (Rooney), Southampton (Shaw) Leeds, (Milner), or Villa (Barry).
Compared to a reigning champions in a desperate CL fight for Rio.
And simply look at the list of top minutes for under 18’s and it’s a who’s, who of players who peaked too early and suffered badly with injuries after their mid twenties.
Raheem Sterling, Wayne Rooney, Luke Shaw, Joe Cole, Jack Rodwell, Michael Richards, Michael Owen, Theo Walcott.
All a shadow of themselves when older and missing half of their games with injuries.
There are very few Milners and Barry’s bucking that trend.
I seem to remember Raheem Sterling play far far more at 17 under Rodgers
Football wearing down your body at 27 is probably a result of playing 10 straight years of pro football by 27.
They are trying to make sure that he has a long career and that we don’t end up in a Bajcetic situation.
The bigger issue is that there aren’t senior players good enough to be playing there. 99.9% of the time your answer is a 17 year old, you’ve gone down the wrong path
I do NOT want to see Rio play more. I mean of course I do… but only when he’s physically ready. He’s at an age where could absolutely ruin his long term career right now
I mean what arne can do is play gakpo n salah in the first half and then if they play even average then if possible in the second half itself OR by the 60th min they can change and bring on chiesa and rio ….I mean changing wingers will almost always change the match so yeah….and then slowly we can make rio stop playing with the youth I mean youth matches and completely start getting more minutes until he becomes the star he is supposed to be
Slot’s explanations in press conferences feel just disconnected from reality and coming across as attempts to twist the narrative in his favor.
At this point, I find it hard to take his words seriously anymore.
The thing is all we really need to see is him getting 30mins instead of 10/15. You know what you’re getting from Gakpo after about 20 minutes. It’s not like he’s one of those that will suddenly turn up and change a game if he’s been playing badly so no reason not to start subbing him off sooner.